Oh, my post above was in response to @Nully, didn’t see you referring to “they” anywhere, did you?
Hope that sheds some light on the process as it currently. I’ll be the first to say that the process certainly isn’t optimal. Curious to hear everyone’s thoughts too, I’ve already got quite a few insights from SEP-2 (and 1) on how we can improve our governance process here. But that’s for another thread and an upcoming governance framework proposal.
[SEP #2] Community Initiative To Unpause Token Contract (Enabling Transferability)
Oh, my post above was in response to @Nully, didn’t see you referring to “they” anywhere, did you?
The parameters in SafeDAO’s Snapshot space and the SafeSnap plugin certainly still need to be discussed and potentially changed as part of the governance framework proposal. Currently, they were just set while setting up the existingm barebone infrastructure to enable SafeDAO to vote at all and have trustless on-chain execution of proposals. At least that is the case now. Classic chicken-and-egg situation.
To the best of my knowledge, the parameters are currently set as follows:
- Snapshot voting delay: 1 day (24 hours)
- Snapshot voting period: 7 days (168 hours)
- SafeSnap/Reality timeout period: 3 days (259200 seconds)
- SafeSnap/Reality cooldown period: 5 days (432000 seconds)
- SafeSnap/Reality answer expiration period: 7 days (604800 seconds)
So, practically speaking for SEP-2:
- given this proposal passes, after 10 Nov 2022 at 12:14 UTC, someone will need to request the execution of this proposal and set an outcome, which requires a stake
- unless anyone challenges that set outcome within the timeout period, the outcome is finalised and the cooldown period starts
- once the cooldown period has ended, the outcome can be executed as a transaction anytime within the answer expiration period of 7 days
See also this handy guide by Gnosis Guild on how SafeSnap/Reality works.
I agree fully that unpausing the contract will be good for the Safe ecosystem and may also:
- Encourage more people to interact with the Safe Protocol;
- Allow for price discovery of the SAFE token asset;
- Imbues the $SAFE asset with value based on supply/demand dynamics;
- Enables the SafeDAO treasury to use its native asset for ecosystem growth;
- Allows people the ability to transfer control of the token between wallets.
I have question , who add token on exchange ? Binance or other ? User cant add token on exchange .
If token unlock i think we need list to TOP EXCHANGE , our project need more fresh people and we need trust .
@lukas , maybe you give info about listing on exchange ( token $safe) and luqidity pool ?
I voted no on this proposal because it is under-specified and insufficiently reviewed/audited.
The proposal claims to be calling the
unpause function, but the code behind the proposal also removes two modules without any mention in the proposal’s text as to why these modules are being removed.
Additionally, from glancing over this thread, it appears that the transaction set was proposed by one person (@0xAA) and there was no publicly visible review of the proposed transactions, they were just thrown into a vote very shortly after being enumerated.
While the code proposed here may be legitimate and bug free, I think as a community we should strongly oppose any proposals that doesn’t…
A. …include a technical description that explains every proposed transaction and its effects in detail.
B. …get publicly reviewed/audited (doesn’t have to be formal/paid) by experts who understand the system.
I encourage people to vote no on this and we try again with the above things addressed so we set a precedent for best practices within this community.
Separately, I feel like 7 days is way too short. We shouldn’t ever be needing to move that fast.
It seems this proposal won’t pass
Removing modules was the team’s own plan and you didn’t know it.
This proposal has been discussed for over a month, and you said it was only 7 days.
To be honest, I don’t see the point of this kind of voting at all.
Less than 30 people hold more than 90% of the voting power.
Most of the 30 people were guardians with official backgrounds, most of them voted against in the vote.
Which means that the votes of the remaining 1,600 people are completely meaningless, and more than 95% of the 1,600 voted yes.
This kind of voting simply does not reflect the opinions of the majority users.
The ending is decided by the votes of people with official background/team related.
About 1% of the people(among top 30) voted against, and more than 95% of the people voted for, but currently It looks like this proposal will probably not pass.
We all know this is simply not fair and does not reflect community opinion
Regardless of the outcome of this vote, I ask the team not to refer to this vote as a “DAO decision”, it’s just a decision by someone with an official background/team related.
This is the decision of the team/official background guardian/team related person.
If you call it “DAO’s decision” to help you avoid some legal/regulatory risks, then when you may take legal responsibility in the future, please Don’t let the remaining 1600 community members/so called DAOs take the blame for you because most of those 1600 voted yes and you voted no.
In my opinion this is what you do, ignore the interests of most users, and control almost all voting rights. You clearly know that most users want tokens transferable, but you stand on the opposite side of most people’s opinion without hesitation.
I used SAFE more than hundreds of times, but any of the Guardians got more tokens than me, we spend gas to claim tokens, we spend time participating in governance, but our opinions are meaningless.
Thanks for voicing your concerns, @nodeE! I’d really like to know what we as the SafeDAO community should do to improve this situation, in your opinion.
Perhaps we’re talking about different ideas and assumptions on how DAO governance is supposed to work. After all, lots of DAOs experiment with lots of different ways to vote.
The concept we know from most nation states – one person, one vote – is rather uncommon amongst DAOs, Proof of Humanity DAO being a notable exception.
AFAIK, most DAOs including SafeDAO fall back on token-weighted voting. This often mirrors a plutocratic structure by default, but I believe that SafeDAO is doing much better than the average DAO because of the fact that we thankfully have Guardians who “have verifiably proven their commitment to [SafeDAO’s] vision”.
When you say “official background”, what do you mean exactly and do you look at that as a bad thing? Personally, I see the Guardian programme as a brilliant innovation and feature of SafeDAO – not a bug – because we’re lucky to have a group of skilled and well intentioned experts who have provably contributed to Safe, and this group received quite a bit of voting power for that reason. Personally, I feel quite relieved to know that this group is a major voice in our community, next to all Safe users, investors and the team.
Long story short, we may want to align more explicitly as a community what kind of decision-making logic we want behind SafeDAO. One person, one vote via KYC? Via DID? Token-weighted voting without any constraints, meaning a pure plutocracy where your voting power is just a matter of how much you pay for it? Or a meritocracy where domain experts are given more voting power?
These are fundamental questions of democracy which humanity has faced for thousands of years, of course.
We don’t need to reinvent the wheel in SafeDAO, but we do have the opportunity to use web3 to question voting mechanisms that became common over the last decades or centuries but should perhaps be questioned. I also see us on a long journey here and will be the first to admit that the current state of our governance is certainly not ideal.
As a starting point, I’d summarise the current situation as follow:
- Phase 0 and 1 proposals are subject to a forum discussion, which approximates one person, one vote in the sense that individuals are free to comment their opinion in the forum and their token holdings do not matter at this point. Of course, Discourse is not sybil-resistant but we could introduce a system (based on POH or Gitcoin passport, for instance) to work towards that.
- Phase 2 proposals are subject to a token vote, whereas SAFE follows a mix of meritocracy (especially allocations to Guardians based on proven positive contributions) and plutocracy (if and once SAFE is transferable)
Where do you suggest we go from here?
You are right. Currently, the SafeDAO governance resembles operationally more a representative democracy rather than a direct democracy. As most people/users, delegated their voting power to Guardians. Either because they trust their judgment or they feel that their delegate can represent their interests best.
While this increases efficiency and better overall voting turnout, it also means that, at the end of the day, a smaller amount of people/entities are deciding a vote compared to a fully direct-democratic system.
However, Snapshot allows any person delegating their voting power to overwrite their delegate’s vote if they do not agree with it.
To my knowledge, nobody from the core team participated in any of the SafeDAO votes so far. So strongly disagree with the notion that these are not community-driven decisions.
Also want to add that while other DAOs decided to have most of their token distribution go exclusively to users, we did intentionally distribute to ecosystem participants (builders, projects). So while I can understand the frustration that, as a result, user have relatively less voting power, I’d also want to point out that users are in fact not the only stakeholders of the Safe Protocol.
Many of the delegates that voted against this proposal clearly communicated their thought process on Twitter. So you are free to challenge their reasoning, but just saying that peoples voices are being ignored is a bit too simple in my opinion.
I’m definitely curious to here concrete ideas how the governance can be improved as the possibilities are endless:
- Two chamber system
- Opening up to more delegates and incentivize/facilitate re-delegation
- Quadratic voting, one person one vote, and other mechanisms
I do understand that you want the Safe Token to become transferable ideally yesterday, but please also not fully discard that there are different opinions on this topic and like many things, there is no right and wrong.
This part of people is on the opposite side of about 1550 community members (95%+), you mean almost all community members are fools/disabled, only those you have chosen are elites and can represent most people?
sir vote should be done by people, not by token, you can see now 90% user voted for transferable token they should win then why 10% user will win with the power of token, you will bring it to the token market where You have to highlight that which will read more votes
Of course not. I only asked you to elaborate on what in your opinion would be a better voting system than it is now. What specifically were you thinking of changing, @nodeE?
Again, I believe SafeDAO is already better than most DAOs in web3 that are typically highly plutocratic and the vast majority of community members have virtually no token weight. In our case, we at least have already ensured that the most engaged community members who built on Safe or contributed positively in some other way received voting power.
Let’s not stop here though, of course. There’s still a lot to improve in the process.
These are all worth discussing and may well be worth making the next SEP.
Don’t thank me, because I really want to scold you now, but it’s hard for me to use bad language to communicate with you because of your thank you.
If you are just trying to perfunctory / deceive most of the community members, please don’t waste your time, fake governance/pseudo-democracy goes against the original intention of decentralization, if 1% of people use their voting rights to defeat more than 95% of the people, Then this is not decentralized at all.
We choose to store assets in SAFE because these assets cannot be taken away by a small number of people with most power. If the governance represented by $SAFE is determined by a small number of people who do not represent most people’s opinion, then everything is like a joke.
Your statement about democracy reminds me of my bad memory about ccp. Even today ,they still insist that 1.4b people enjoying their democracy .
Quadratic Voting, One person One vote❓I will say NO to this regardless of the outcome of this ongoing #SEP2
The primary purpose of $SAFE as at now is for governance- to gain voting power and vote.
I’m not against any other improvements people may propose but the Quadratic Voting doesn’t sit well from my end, I’m feeling like we will want to cut off the only use-case $SAFE token have at this moment.
As regard the current results on snapshot (about 50% - 50%), I would suggest we make announcement on the SafeDAO Twitter and to be retweeted by @safe educating people that they can over ride the decision made by delagetes if don’t agree with it.
They can only over turn such decision by voting directly with their SAFE which is the main owner of the voting power.
Right now, delegating to their EOA won’t give the newly delegates address voting power because snapshot of voting power has been taken at a specific block but voting with SAFE will work well but that comes with paying gas fee
I did the same here!!!
Dear sir, @nodeE
I understand how you feeling and I really want the token transferable too (verily, you know this) but I believe this DAO is still at the experimental stage and this type of proposal #SEP2 is a good one to know is set right and what needs improvements.
No one talked about voting power and no one would have bother about it if the current #SEP2 on snapshot didn’t turn out this way.
I’m glad to see some of the core team including the DAO coordinator seeing this as a problem that need fixing too.
So, I would suggest we keep supporting by proposing improvements where we deem fit. Taking it hard on the concerned ones may not be the best thing to do at this moment
Thanks for being active here and thanks for being among the few that made taking this #SEP2 to snapshot faster. I personally appreciate all you do here